Doug Mason

Joined

• started 457 topics
• posted 2,351 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Doug Mason

• 
  110

  References to YHWH in ancient documents

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  page 15 of awake!

  2017 provides an image that shows hebrew writing with the statement: “the personal name of god written in ancient hebrew characters appears abundantly in early manuscripts of the bible”.. alongside that image, the awake!

  provides a listing to show “the rendering of ‘god’s name’ in various languages”.. the facts do not support either assertion that the watchtower society makes:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Smiddy,

  I have several books by Bible scholars that discuss Yahweh and some include that word in the book's title.

  If God needs a name, does that mean he/she/it needs to be identified from the other gods? Otherwise, what's the point?

  Doug
• 
  110

  References to YHWH in ancient documents

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  page 15 of awake!

  2017 provides an image that shows hebrew writing with the statement: “the personal name of god written in ancient hebrew characters appears abundantly in early manuscripts of the bible”.. alongside that image, the awake!

  provides a listing to show “the rendering of ‘god’s name’ in various languages”.. the facts do not support either assertion that the watchtower society makes:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Earnest,

  Thank you for your help,

  Doug
• 
  13

  The anonymity of Jehovah's Witness material

  by stuckinarut2 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  is it vital for credibility to have the name of the writer of an article referenced?.

  does this allow for honesty and accountability?

  does this assist in ensuring that whatever is presented is as factual as possible, or not biased in some way toward the religion's ideas?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  I suppose it's different now, but I had thought in the past they did not want to show that an author was not of the "Anointed Class".

  Things change,

  Doiug
• 
  110

  References to YHWH in ancient documents

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  page 15 of awake!

  2017 provides an image that shows hebrew writing with the statement: “the personal name of god written in ancient hebrew characters appears abundantly in early manuscripts of the bible”.. alongside that image, the awake!

  provides a listing to show “the rendering of ‘god’s name’ in various languages”.. the facts do not support either assertion that the watchtower society makes:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  hangedman,

  Blame the Kabbalah.

  Blame Gematria.

  Blame the irrationality of Religion in all its forms.

  Why oh why do otherwise rational people behave so irrationally, speculatively?

  Doug
• 
  110

  References to YHWH in ancient documents

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  page 15 of awake!

  2017 provides an image that shows hebrew writing with the statement: “the personal name of god written in ancient hebrew characters appears abundantly in early manuscripts of the bible”.. alongside that image, the awake!

  provides a listing to show “the rendering of ‘god’s name’ in various languages”.. the facts do not support either assertion that the watchtower society makes:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Wow, Slim, there is just so much to discover but so little time do it all.

  Thank you for pointing out that book, which I have added to my wish list.

  Doug
• 
  110

  References to YHWH in ancient documents

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  page 15 of awake!

  2017 provides an image that shows hebrew writing with the statement: “the personal name of god written in ancient hebrew characters appears abundantly in early manuscripts of the bible”.. alongside that image, the awake!

  provides a listing to show “the rendering of ‘god’s name’ in various languages”.. the facts do not support either assertion that the watchtower society makes:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Earnest,

  Thank you so very much for referring me to the book by Emanuel Tov.

  The copy I downloaded from your link commences the discussion on page 224 (PDF page 246).

  I will study it carefully and adjust my thinking as required. Every day I learns something new, and I appreciate your help.

  Doug
• 
  110

  References to YHWH in ancient documents

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  page 15 of awake!

  2017 provides an image that shows hebrew writing with the statement: “the personal name of god written in ancient hebrew characters appears abundantly in early manuscripts of the bible”.. alongside that image, the awake!

  provides a listing to show “the rendering of ‘god’s name’ in various languages”.. the facts do not support either assertion that the watchtower society makes:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Thank you for your comments. The argument from the book I largely quoted from is that Yahwism arose when Moses brought it from the south (Midian) and that it disappeared. The main proponent and contributor to monotheism being second Isaiah (chapters 40ff), written at the time of the Neo-Babylonian captivity and exile.

  The Judaism that emerged from that period did not reflect the prior majority religious experience.

  Thanks for pointing me to that book, Slim. At $100 (Australian), it will have to sit on the back burner until my Pension stretches that far. I managed to download a review, so I will see what that says.

  Regarding the letter "J" - it was the last letter to make it into the English alphabet. In German, it is pronounced softly, as a "Y". I know this personally as my Viennese mother's surname was Jellinek, pronounced as "Y".

  If the WTS wants to reflect the practices it touts, then it should use the ancient form of the Hebrew. That will show it was not meant to be pronoinced.

  As for the name of "Jesus", this is a mangled form of "Yeshua", which should be anglicised as "Joshua". This name (Joshua) is the earliest name that contains a reference to YHWH.

  I will look into the work by Emanuel Tov (one of my "heroes").

  The god named EL came to the Hebrews from their northern neighbours. He was the main fatherly god alongside his wife Asherah. They produced 70 gods, including Ba'al, and the pantheon is known as the "Elohim". We encounter El and his brood in Genesis Chapter 1.

  The god named YHWH came from the south. He was not part of the Elohim. Moses (an Egyptian name), who was influenced by his father-in-law, brought YHWH with him. Previously, the people had worshiped EL (as El-shadday).

  Doug
• 
  110

  References to YHWH in ancient documents

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  page 15 of awake!

  2017 provides an image that shows hebrew writing with the statement: “the personal name of god written in ancient hebrew characters appears abundantly in early manuscripts of the bible”.. alongside that image, the awake!

  provides a listing to show “the rendering of ‘god’s name’ in various languages”.. the facts do not support either assertion that the watchtower society makes:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Page 15 of Awake! no. 6. 2017 provides an image that shows Hebrew writing with the statement: “The personal name of God written in ancient Hebrew characters appears abundantly in early manuscripts of the Bible”.

  Alongside that image, the Awake! provides a listing to show “the rendering of ‘God’s Name’ in various languages”.

  The facts do not support either assertion that the Watchtower Society makes:

  http://www.jwstudies.com/References_to_YHWH_in_ancient_Hebrew_documents.pdf

  Doug
• 
  13

  The “Most High” allocated Yahweh to Jacob

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  deuteronomy 32:8-9 describes the most high (god) apportioning the nations to the gods according to “the number of the sons of israel/gods”.

  one can argue over the niceties of the meaning of that expression.

  of interest is that the “most high” allocated jacob to yahweh (“jehovah”).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Thanks for pointing me to the NET Bible.

  I have reproduced that material, as well as pointing to a Paper referred to in the NET Footnote.

  Doug

  =================

  NET Bible: Deuteronomy 32:8, 9

  When the Most High [footnote 12, below] gave the nations their inheritance,
  when he divided up humankind [footnote 13],
  he set the boundaries of the peoples,
  according to the number of the heavenly assembly [footnote 14].
  For the Lord’s allotment is his people,
  Jacob is his special possession [footnote 15].

  12. The Hebrew term עֶלְיוֹן (ʿelyon) is an abbreviated form of the divine name El Elyon, frequently translated “God Most High” (so here NCV, CEV) or something similar. This full name (or epithet) occurs only in Gen 14, though the two elements are parallel in Pss 73:11; 107:11; etc. Here it is clear that Elyon has to do with the nations in general whereas in v. 9, by contrast, Yahweh relates specifically to Israel. See T. Fretheim, NIDOTTE 1:400-401. The title depicts God as the sovereign ruler of the world, who is enthroned high above his dominion.

  13. Heb “the sons of man” (so NASB); or “the sons of Adam” (so KJV).

  14. Heb “the sons of Israel.” The idea, perhaps, is that Israel was central to Yahweh’s purposes and all other nations were arranged and distributed according to how they related to Israel. … For the MT יִשְׂרָאֵל בְּנֵי (bne yisraʾel, “sons of Israel”) a Qumran fragment has “sons of God,” while the LXX reads ἀγγέλων θεοῦ (angelōn theou, “angels of God”), presupposing בְּנֵי אֵל (bne ʾel) or בְּנֵי אֵלִים (bene ʾelim). “Sons of God” is undoubtedly the original reading; the MT and LXX have each interpreted it differently. MT assumes that the expression “sons of God” refers to Israel (cf. Hos. 1:10), while LXX has assumed that the phrase refers to the angelic heavenly assembly (Pss 29:1; 89:6; cf. as well Ps 82). The phrase is also attested in Ugaritic, where it refers to the high god El’s divine assembly. According to the latter view, which is reflected in the translation, the Lord delegated jurisdiction over the nations to his angelic host (cf. Dan 10:13-21), while reserving for himself Israel, over whom he rules directly. For a defense of the view taken here, see M. S. Heiser, “Deuteronomy 32:8 and the Sons of God,” BSac 158 (2001): 52-74.

  ===============

  The article by Heiser is available for download at
  

  https://archive.org/details/pdfy-LOqm5fXBY0UQZl7G
  

  It certainly looks most interesting.

  Thanks,

  Doug
• 
  13

  The “Most High” allocated Yahweh to Jacob

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  deuteronomy 32:8-9 describes the most high (god) apportioning the nations to the gods according to “the number of the sons of israel/gods”.

  one can argue over the niceties of the meaning of that expression.

  of interest is that the “most high” allocated jacob to yahweh (“jehovah”).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Crazyguy,

  I wonder if the "Israel" they speak of is the man Jacob who was renamed "Israel". Just a wild thought without any research. Most likely way off the mark.

  As I mentioned previously in this Thread, the book "Gods, Goddesses, and Images of God in Ancient Israel" provides a wealth of written and pictorial information. Hundreds of pages with hundreds of images. It is data-dense with a position that is measured.

  The Israelites did not share our concept of "history". Indeed our concept is only very recent:

  https://www.britannica.com/topic/historiography

  The Biblical writings -- all of them -- are influenced by ideology. They are all religious fiction. All. At times presenting good moral and ethical principles, but nevertheless never relaying objective factual evidences.

  It underwent a lot of reworking. and some was written about 200 years after the Neo-Babylonian Exile.

  Doug